The art of casting in Hollywood : NPR

AILSA CHANG, HOST:

Once in a while, I am watching a film that pulls me in so deeply I completely neglect that the individuals on display screen are actors. Properly, you understand, each movie crew has an individual whose job it’s to choose these actors, those who deliver to life and make us imagine what we’re watching. You see, behind each nice character on display screen is a casting director. A casting director’s skilled eye finds simply the suitable face, the suitable voice, the suitable soul of a personality inside an actor.

REUBEN CANNON: While you audition, you hear the dialogue learn by any variety of actors. However somebody will are available in and say these phrases, and it is like Ray Charles singing “America The Stunning.” You’ll hear it for the primary time, in a brand new manner. And that is what I’d search for. I’d search for that Ray Charles second.

CHANG: That was former casting director Reuben Cannon, who seems within the newest season of the Academy Museum podcast. It is referred to as “Shut Up On Casting.” It appears to be like on the artwork and historical past of casting in Hollywood. It is hosted by the director and president of the Academy Museum of Movement Photos, Jacqueline Stewart. She joins us now, together with former casting director and now movie producer Reuben Cannon. Welcome to each of you.

JACQUELINE STEWART: Thanks.

CANNON: Thanks.

CANNON: So, Jacqueline, I need to begin with you. This explicit season traces, you understand, the historical past behind casting in Hollywood, which started with the studio system within the Nineteen Twenties, earlier than the precise job of casting director even existed. Are you able to speak about how casting labored in these earlier days?

STEWART: Positive. I imply, we’ve got to consider the best way that the basic Hollywood studio system actually labored as a manufacturing unit operation, you understand? Administrators had been assigned to explicit tasks, as was each different crew member, and that was true for actors as effectively. So the studio heads had been actually making these selections. The producers had been making these selections. And for essentially the most half, they had been casting actors to play the identical sorts of sorts that had been dictated by the best way that they regarded. So your age would dictate the sorts of roles you’ll get. Your gender would dictate the sorts of roles that you just obtained. And that was actually confining when it comes to the type of alternative that actors had. There actually wasn’t an entire lot of alternative, and lots of actors had been punished for refusing or providing resistance to taking part in explicit roles. So it was very inflexible, an meeting line type of operation.

CHANG: Completely. Speak extra about that rigidity as a result of actors had been typecast so tightly again then. The descriptions that studio executives and a few big-shot administrators would use to explain, particularly ladies actors, they had been so flattening. Like, are you able to give us some particular examples?

STEWART: Completely. We have a look at the casting of “Rebecca,” the 1940 Hitchcock movie.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “REBECCA”)

JOAN FONTAINE: (As Mrs. de Winter) I strive my finest every single day, however it’s very troublesome with individuals trying me up and down as if I had been a prized cow.

STEWART: And have a look at a few of the display screen exams for numerous actors who had been up for the position, like Vivien Leigh and Anne Baxter. It is onerous to think about anyone else however Joan Fontaine taking part in that position, however others had been being thought-about. And there are a sequence of memos that Alfred Hitchcock was writing to the producer, David O. Selznick, that provide you with a way of how crass typically and superficial these evaluations might be. So, for instance, Alicia Rhett is described as being homely and a bit too previous. Betty Campbell is described as being too unusual, too chocolate field.

CHANG: And wasn’t somebody in comparison with porcelain or china?

STEWART: Sure. Sure. Miriam Patty (ph) is described as an excessive amount of Dresden china.

CHANG: Dang.

STEWART: These – the shorthand methods of characterizing these artists clearly will not be interested by, oh, right here is how we’d domesticate this individual. Here is how we’d, you understand, reveal completely different layers of what they’ll do, which, luckily, is what occurred in a while as pioneering casting administrators actually started to work in a extra nuanced manner.

CHANG: Precisely. Let’s speak about that. The entire studio system began to get dismantled in 1948, and casting administrators began to come back about. And I need to go to you, Reuben Cannon, since you are, your self, a casting director pioneer. You had been the primary African American casting director in Hollywood. You casted for movies like “The Colour Purple.” You had been the top of tv casting for Warner Brothers for a while. And I simply love the story of how you bought into this enterprise. You actually began within the mailroom at Common Studios, proper? I imply, that just about reads like a screenplay already.

CANNON: Properly, truly, it is fairly frequent ‘trigger they’d give these fancy names to those departments. Common referred to the mailroom as the manager coaching program.

CHANG: (Laughter).

CANNON: And that is – you understand, and also you needed to – you had been required to put on a shirt and a tie and a swimsuit, and also you delivered mail all through the lot. I inform the story that every thing I have to find out about Hollywood, I realized in Chicago on my paper route. And on my paper route, there with three guidelines that it is advisable to comply with. One – ship the newspaper every single day. Get to know your prospects so you may accumulate your charge for delivering the paper. No. 3, crucial – do not get robbed.

CHANG: That is a great one. Sure.

CANNON: Precisely. So how did these ideas apply to Hollywood? So I am now within the mailroom delivering mail to Hitchcock, Paul Newman, Hal Wallis on the studio lot. And, effectively, the identical factor – ship the mail promptly, on time. Get to know the individuals you are delivering to as a result of it’s possible you’ll want a letter of advice. And No. 3, do not let anybody rob you of your desires.

CHANG: Aw.

CANNON: And so the mailroom, you understand, it was actually – it was a possibility to study from the bottom up and the way a studio capabilities.

CHANG: Properly, you finally labored your manner up on this studio to turn out to be a casting director. And I am curious, Reuben, what do you assume it’s about you, personally, and the best way that you just relate to those who made casting such a pure match for you?

CANNON: Properly, the person who employed me to work in casting was a gentleman named Ralph Winters. Ralph Winters was the top of casting for Common Tv. And Ralph Winters gave me the mantra that I’ve used, which is that – Reuben, at all times rent actors which can be superior to the position they should play.

CHANG: What did he imply by that?

CANNON: Properly, which means that should you’re casting an actor to play Cop No. 1, he ought to be able to doing the lead as a result of everybody begins someplace. You realize, Denzel, you understand, was doing small roles earlier than he turned, you understand, a star. Everybody begins – so the casting director job is to establish your casting for – you understand, for the long run. So that they, you understand, give the primary job to that actor. Years in the past, I employed John Travolta for a task in a TV present I used to be casting referred to as “Emergency!” He had two traces – an actor who had taken a fall and sprained his ankle.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, “EMERGENCY”)

JOHN TRAVOLTA: (As Chuck Benson) I by no means thought anyone would discover me right here.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Is there something flawed with you beside that leg there?

TRAVOLTA: (As Chuck Benson) Yeah, my shoulder.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Let’s have a look at.

CANNON: You realize, as soon as once more, he was far superior to the – what the position required.

CHANG: Wait, wait wait. That is earlier than “Grease” and “Saturday Evening Fever”? Like, manner earlier than that, you noticed John Travolta?

CANNON: Oh, completely.

CHANG: Wow.

CANNON: He isn’t simply there as a background atmospheric participant. He is there, at current, as an actor.

STEWART: And this level that Reuben is making is so illuminating. It was for me as a result of that is the place the self-discipline and the nuance of data of a casting director turns into so vital as a result of a part of what you all do is you acknowledge issues that the producers do not essentially see, that the director might not see. And I used to be actually struck by how typically you and different casting administrators talked about going to bat for explicit actors and actually insisting, no, you have to have a look at this individual, since you’re interested by craft and ability and open to potentialities that may actually deliver one thing transformative to a venture.

CANNON: Properly, what’s thrilling about casting is that you just actually do not know it until you see it, and that is the thrilling half. You could have one thought in thoughts and an actor is available in with that – and offers you that Ray Charles second. You say, I by no means considered it that manner, however, wow, how thrilling is that? And I’ve instructed the story many occasions about Bruce Willis in “Moonlighting,” that – you understand, when casting that TV sequence.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, “MOONLIGHTING”)

CYBILL SHEPHERD: (As Maddie Hayes) What are you doing now?

BRUCE WILLIS: (As David Addison) Trying up the phrase nefarious. He mentioned his son may be concerned in one thing nefarious so I – nefarious – one thing unspeakably depraved.

CANNON: I had heard that position learn so many occasions. However then swiftly, Bruce is available in and offers it an entire new spin as a result of he was not the community’s definition of a number one man. Actually, they – I used to be fired as a result of I stored bringing him again to the studio because the lead. They usually mentioned, Reuben, clearly you do not know what a number one man is.

CHANG: However good for you for sticking to what you believed. And, look, he carried “Moonlighting” – I imply, with Cybill Shepherd. They had been nice.

CANNON: In fact. In fact. Precisely. Precisely. However they – that was not their definition, as Jacqueline talked about, the prototypes of what these so-called networks imagine at the moment.

CHANG: Properly, given all of the nuance that it’s important to contemplate when you’re selecting an actor to fill a task, how vital is it that casting administrators mirror a various array of lived experiences and identities?

CANNON: It is the one manner you are going to ever obtain any diploma of reflection of society, if you do not have individuals within the room that does mirror society. I do know personally, for me, I’ve forged sufficient reveals that if it weren’t for my presence there as a Black man, the position wouldn’t have been forged to Black actors, ladies – however notably on the subject of Black actors. You realize, my presence there – so I might deliver up a reputation and both out of concern or my persuasiveness, you understand, the producers and director will say sure. Now, as soon as once more, I am providing them actors which can be superior to the position. This isn’t tokenism. This isn’t doing anybody a favor. That is going to be an enhancement to the venture.

CHANG: Yeah. Jacqueline, I need to come again to you as a result of we’re speaking in regards to the discriminatory methods by which Hollywood has lengthy operated. And earlier, you understand, you had been mentioning the distinctive challenges that ladies face after they’re being forged in roles. Are you able to speak about how that has modified or possibly has not modified over time?

STEWART: Properly, the variety of main roles for girls has elevated over time. It is nonetheless not reflective of the inhabitants. We’re not there but, and largely due to the explanations that Reuben was pointing to with regard to race. There are nonetheless not sufficient ladies who’re helming studios, who’re making the choices, who’re crafting the agendas for what the content material is, and insisting that there are ladies who’ve quite a lot of potentialities in entrance of the digicam. In one in every of our episodes, we have a look at the case of Meg Ryan, who appeared in an erotic thriller directed by Jane Campion referred to as “In The Lower.”

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “IN THE CUT”)

MEG RYAN: (As Frannie Avery) Stream of consciousness, I might wish to level out, will not be the identical factor as stream of conscience, from which a few of you could have mistaken it. A logical error in some methods.

STEWART: And since Meg Ryan had been form of pigeonholed in lots of studios’ minds as a type of rom-com queen…

CHANG: America’s sweetheart. Yeah.

STEWART: Sure, sure – “When Harry Met Sally” and “You’ve got Received Mail.” When she, in collaboration with an unimaginable lady filmmaker, Jane Campion, actually wished to stretch and do one thing completely different, it was obtained very badly, notably by male movie critics. And it is solely after a few years that the movie is now, I believe, getting the type of essential reappraisal that it deserves. And it was, you understand, a very onerous and damaging second for her when it comes to her profession.

CHANG: As each of you could have been declaring again and again, there’s a lot room for Hollywood to nonetheless develop and evolve. Discriminatory habits remains to be occurring. A query for each of you. You realize, you could have observed how casting administrators typically go uncredited. Their work is usually unnoticed in Hollywood by the Academy. I imply, to this present day, there nonetheless will not be a class within the Academy Awards for casting administrators. Why do you assume that’s? Why do you assume the position of casting director is so neglected nonetheless?

CANNON: So if the administrators did a greater job of acknowledging the casting administrators, the casting director standing within the Academy would enhance. So it is undervalued as a result of the – in movie, the director is – has essentially the most leverage. If the administrators acknowledge the casting administrators, we are going to see a change within the perspective towards casting.

CHANG: What about you, Jacqueline?

STEWART: You realize, I have been actually recognizing how the work of casting administrators that goes underappreciated truly has numerous classes for the way we ought to be approaching opening up alternatives for individuals throughout industries – in academia, in company America. If we had been to actually have a look at coaching and discover methods to get round our inherent biases to present a wider vary of individuals alternatives to indicate what they’re able to doing, these are actually precious classes that I believe would open up a extra inclusive atmosphere throughout the board.

CHANG: Reuben Cannon – he is Hollywood’s first Black casting director and now a movie producer. And Jacqueline Stewart is director and president of the Academy Museum of Movement Photos and host of their podcast, together with this season, “Shut Up On Casting.” Thanks to each of you a lot.

STEWART: Thanks.

CANNON: Thanks, Ailsa.

Copyright © 2023 NPR. All rights reserved. Go to our web site phrases of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for additional data.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This textual content is probably not in its closing kind and could also be up to date or revised sooner or later. Accuracy and availability might differ. The authoritative document of NPR’s programming is the audio document.